I Overheard a Conversation about Racism…
A Story
After checking in with the apartment management office where I’m staying in Penang, Malaysia, I was asked to wait as ID cards were made. A few minutes later, I was greeted by a friendly gentleman who worked at the facility. He welcomed me to Penang and spoke of his upcoming holiday. A few minutes later, another foreign guest arrived. He knew the gentleman by name, and they talked about hiking on the island. After chatting for several minutes, the conversation abruptly turned to race as stories and misinformation about others of a different race were made by my new friend. Several of our books ran through my mind as I listened. I observed issues of race, bias, identity, dignity, and managing impossible conversations as part of this uncomfortable cross-cultural situation.
The conversation took on a different tone when the foreign guest spoke up after listening for several minutes. He gently responded that he disagreed and respectfully commented on the racial bias of his friend. Culturally, I’m not sure how well his comments were received as the conversation ended awkwardly shortly thereafter, but there was a promise to talk later. I wondered how my new friend felt when confronted with his own bias. However, during the conversation, I observed respectful speech, rapport, active listening, modeling, curiosity, and no display of anger. These are skills described in How to Have Impossible Conversations by Peter Boghossian and James Lindsay. I wonder how this conversation would have gone down if it had been in the United States.
My context is removed from what is currently happening during the US elections. As a nation, we aren’t very good at practicing the wisdom of James 1:19, “Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry.” I’m grieved by the harmful and reckless actions of those who fail to practice the Golden Rule. I’m reminded that challenging conversations are a global experience and are managed differently depending on cultural norms and expectations. We all feel strongly about something. We all have stories and experiences that shape our thoughts, feelings, positions, and actions. What would it be like to get underneath that and truly understand another person? Even those with whom we strongly disagree.
The Book
Boghossian and Lindsay offer an array of skills and suggest different levels of interaction. The main goal of their book is to help people communicate with those with radically different beliefs.[1] They warn of emotional and identity-laden undercurrents that must be navigated with care.[2] Additionally, the repercussions of speaking up in our current “Cancel Culture” society are genuine.[3] Three essential skills stood out to me. First, letting our friends be wrong.[4] The concept speaks of maintaining good boundaries, both intellectually and emotionally. This pairs well with Lukianoff and Schlott’s recommendation to practice “epistemic humility,” which acknowledges that we, too, might be wrong, and no one should be canceled for thinking differently.[5] The second skill is asking good questions. This advanced skill includes Socratic, calibrated, and disconfirming questions.[6] The third is incredibly challenging: helping someone vent.[7] This requires tolerance for the intense feelings of others while providing them with a safe place to land.
So much to glean! However, I’m concerned by the following statement,”…to help someone change her mind about a moral belief make it your goal to sow doubts in the pathways that enable her to conclude she holds the correct values.”[8] (italics mine) While I’m grateful for the plasticity of our brain’s neuropathways, to be honest, I’m not sure it’s my job to change someone else’s mind. How about offering an invitation to be curious and wonder with me? I believe that is at the heart of what our authors say. But there seems to be a fine line. I don’t want to be someone’s project, nor do I want to go in with the goal of changing someone else’s values. That feels dishonest. What about prioritizing relationships? An open and humble stance is necessary for building authentic relationships in which our mirror neurons can impact one another positively. Brains need other brains to integrate knowledge. Mirror neurons work both positively and negatively by helping us understand and imitate the behaviors, thoughts, and feelings of others. My response plays an important role. I must be genuine, undefended, and non-anxious to accomplish the task!
Concluding Thoughts
While this book is particularly timely in our American cultural context, I wonder how these principles apply cross-culturally. Shame, saving face, and the cultural constructs of humility add more nuance to these seemingly impossible conversations. I’m pondering what needs to be adjusted. But I’ll ask first! I’m certain we all need to feel safe, the experience of being heard, our dignity upheld, and our identity as beloved affirmed.
Last week, I was blessed to be with ninety pastors and leaders in Indonesia. Together, we practiced silence and listening. There were no attempts to fix, judge, interrupt, or convince the one speaking of a different point of view. We listened, reflecting on what we heard. We gave each other the gift of a safe place to tell our stories and feel what we needed to feel in the company of others we trust and love. This does not mean we all think and feel the same because we don’t. Or that we were in groups with people that we knew well. We weren’t. What we have is a commitment to deepen our relational connections. As our authors suggest, developing a relationship or engaging in a conversation partnership is a wise place to begin. This will likely require more listening, more silence, and better questions. Julian Treasure reminds me that listening to another person is “a rare and generous gift.”[9]
That being said, there are serious issues that require a more outspoken approach, such as human trafficking, racial injustices, and the abuse of children and vulnerable adults in all its forms. Boghossian and Lindsay give us a boundaried and respectful toolkit for speaking up for the silenced, marginalized, and abused. In a highly politicized and polarized environment, this is where our voices, speaking the truth in love, matter most.
[1] Peter Boghossian and James Lindsay, How to Have Impossible Conversations: A Very Practical Guide (New York, NY: Hachette Books, 2019), 1.
[2] Boghossian and Lindsay, Impossible Conversations, 162.
[3] Greg Lukianoff and Rikki Schlott, The Canceling of the American Mind, (New York NY: Simon & Schuster, 2023), 31.
[4] Boghossian and Lindsay, Impossible Conversations, 73.
[5] Lukianoff and Schlott, Canceling, 91.
[6] Boghossian and Lindsay, Impossible Conversations, 43-44, 116.
[7] Ibid., 138-139.
[8] Ibid., 166.
[9] Julian Treasure, How to be Heard: Secrets for Powerful Speaking and Listening. (Coral Gables, Fl: Mango Publishing Group, 2017), 38.
About the Author
Jenny Dooley
Jenny served as a missionary in Southeast Asia for 28 years. She currently resides in Gig Harbor, Washington, where she works as a Licensed Mental Health Counselor and Certified Spiritual Director in private practice with her husband, Eric. Jenny loves to listen and behold the image of God in others. She enjoys traveling, reading, and spending time with her family which include 5 amazing adult children, 3 awesome sons-in-law, a beautiful daughter-in-law, and 8 delightful grandchildren.11 responses to “I Overheard a Conversation about Racism…”
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Jenny, this is such a great and helpful post, and I want to comment on what you highlighted from the authors: ”…to help someone change her mind about a moral belief make it your goal to sow doubts in the pathways that enable her to conclude she holds the correct values.” You then said, “I’m not sure it’s my job to change someone else’s mind.” This is the posture that I have to remind myself to adhere to — actually, since you brought of Simon Walker’s reference to an undefended leader in your post…I need to cling to and rest in the “Other” (Walker’s language) for my own well-being and hope MORE than hoping my friend or conversation partner changes his/her mind. In a disagreement I had over the weekend, I kept thinking what clever or fact-based words and arguments I could use to change the mind of someone. Thankfully, I withheld what I wanted to say, and I am reminded by you — and by Jonita (see her post) — that God is the one who changes hearts and minds, including mine.
Hi Travis, Thanks for your comments and sharing your experience. I’ve had similar moments when it’s been really hard to keep my thoughts to myself and not react in some unhelpful way. I’m not usually listening very well when that happens. 🙂 It’s also very hard to keep listening when I’m trying to formulate even a gracious or curious response that moves the conversation forward. I frequently have to remind myself that it is a conversation and I am allowed to speak, but if I can stay focused on the speaker and listen until they are done, I might have a better response that’s actually heard.
Oh…and I asked a few friends (from three different Asian countries) about their understanding of humility. All three said it was a cultural construct around what is deemed polite and acceptable behavior but is not necessarily an authentic expression of humility. They were also curious about what Christian humility really looked like when the cultural expressions of humility were stripped away. They all wanted to think more about it and found the comparison interesting.
Jenny, I think your question about cultural conext is really important. Though I know that is a book targeted to Western minds, when we consider how we’re learning to be global leaders the way he approaches ‘impossible conversations’ may be more impossible with cross-cultural realities than he could imagine.
It’s a good reminder to not get sucked into a mono-cultural mindset.
Hi Tim,
Thank s for your comments. I keep thinking I need to revisit Erin Meyers book, The Culture Map, and see how some of what Boghossian and Lindsay say might compare to her cultural insights. But I didn’t bring the book with me. I’m also reminded that even within our own culture in the US we have many different cultural perspectives and experiences that shape our views. Understanding where someone else is coming from often makes it easier to relate to their opinions, even if we disagree, but it takes a lot of patient listening!
Hi Jenny,
As always, a kind approach.
Some of the cohort had trouble with the general perspective of the author and some accepted the mantle of idealogue.
While I tend to be confrontational, walking away, letting others be wrong, investing in listening, and investing in relationships are all nice takeaways.
In short, I think I need to learn to stay in my own lane. In regards to evangelism, letting the HOLY SPIRIT doing the convicting. But being present when they need “Jesus with skin on.” lets call it discipleship.
Not confronting churches hostile to immigration or empowering them to serve refugees.
Big thoughts floating in my brain.
Shalom.
Hi Russell,
Thanks for your response to my post. I’ve been thinking about where my areas of growth are and I keep landing on speaking up, asking good questions, and staying focused on what someone else is saying rather than formulating my questions or responses. I get a lot of practice as a counselor and spiritual director but in “real” life I don’t want to come off sounding like a counselor, and I’m human! After listening all day I feel like I’m “done.” I’m often more aware of when I’m not listening well than when I am. I have noticed improvement in speaking up and sharing my thoughts and opinions in personal conversations, especially those in which I have a different opinion. I’ve been taking the perspective that any conversation is good practice in listening, asking good questions, and sharing my thoughts. I’m a work in progress!
Amen.
At the risk of sounding repetitious…I am being upgraded in the DLGP02!
Hi, Jenny,
Thanks forsharing so much of your wisdom here. You stated “But there seems to be a fine line. I don’t want to be someone’s project, nor do I want to go in with the goal of changing someone else’s values.” This goes along with what Scott Dickie wrote on evangelism. It is not our job to change a person, it is the Holy Spirit’s job. This alleviates the need to “make” someone believe like me.
What are your thoughts on how to evangelize in a way that honors Christ?
Hi Esther,
I’m not much of an evangelist but I believe it gets down to relationship, genuine love, care, and helping them build relationships with others. Listening and giving people time is very important. When I hear salvation testimonies I’ve noted that it’s not usually because they were persuaded by someone’s words, but by people who loved them and built relationships with them, or an encounter with God or his intervention in their life. I think hospitality, acceptance, and making room for people to experience God’s love and power is impactful, especially when it’s not forced. It’s hard to argue when God shows up. All of the above takes sensitivity, humility, and the ability to get out of God’s way.
Hi Jenny,
I am very grateful to read your very enlightening post. I am also grateful for your NPO project and your ministry to church ministers in Southeast Asia, especially Indonesia.
Our context, with its great diversity, including social and economic disparities, calls and challenges churches to be able to address these issues effectively. Therefore, silence and good listening are strategies that often work. I am interested in your statement, “That being said, there are serious issues that require a more outspoken approach, such as human trafficking, racial injustices, and the abuse of children and vulnerable adults in all its forms. Boghossian and Lindsay give us a boundaried and respectful toolkit for speaking up for the silenced, marginalized, and abused. In a highly politicized and polarized environment, this is where our voices, speaking the truth in love, matter most.”
To what extent does Boghossian and Lindsay’s book help activists, humanitarians, and church ministers to help victims of social injustice?
Blessings.
Hi Dinka,
I’m not sure that was the focus of their book. They seemed to have their own agenda. But what they wrote about listening and good conversations on hard topics is very useful in all kinds of situations. Their points about remaining respectful and engaged are key. My comment had more to do with speaking up about things just because it’s right and people are getting hurt. I don’t need to be understood or get anyone’s agreement for that. The real help is in listening to the victims of social injustices and understanding what they need. Listening is always a good thing!