The Big Question I Didn’t Ask
This week’s cohort zoom chat made me cry because the vision of my life bubbled up in heat inside of me. I do believe that trauma recovery should change the world and is a message that is entirely about the Kingdom of God.
I really enjoy our cohort Zoom chats and the contributions everyone brings. I can, however, find it really challenging to navigate when to jump in and when to give space for others. Maybe it’s because I am a pastor and was a schoolteacher, but I really do count who has spoken and who hasn’t, and I can’t speak until others have! This week was painful because I didn’t ask the only question I really wanted to ask our guest speaker. Why not? Probably because ‘emotions can make even the best of us into idiots, driving us away from clear thinking.’[1] I wanted the answer so much and knew I wouldn’t have enough time to explore it deeply and so instead I found myself writing a list of the possible answers he may give while I was on the zoom. This is the question:
WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU TO CAUSE YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY ARE MORE IMPORTANT IN LEADERSHIP THAN A TITLE, POSITION AND HOW OTHERS VIEW YOU?
I have been around too many leaders who have used power to harm people. I have been around leaders who are deeply insecure and those who use others to build their reputation. I have seen the harm that it causes. I want to know what happened in the life of Jules Glanzer and actually also some of my cohort peers. What shifted them away from the expected and accepted leadership culture that encourages people to seek after personal gain rather than integrity? This is what I wrote down during the zoom, to guess what he or others may say for the reason they care about integrity in leadership:
- Jesus transformed them and healed them.
- They had a positive, nurturing attachment as a child.
- They burnt out or had moral failure and so had to deal with their heart.
- They had a good pastor/mentor/peers.
- They had therapy to work on their heart/ wounds/ pain/ trauma.
- They were determined to never be like their or someone else’s abuser.
- They were modelled healthy, selfless leadership from an early age.
I hold the view so passionately that doing the work on our subconscious and heart is vital and Parrish opens his book with a quote from Cordelia Fine to remind us to ‘never forgot that your unconscious is smarter than you, faster than you, and more powerful than you. It may even control you. You will never know all of its secrets.’[2] Leaders need to do the hard work of paying attention to our greatest danger, because arguably ‘the most perilous challenges are those that lurk in the pastor’s inner world.’[3] I believe this is the journey to integrity where leaders can ‘use their power rightly: to protect, defend, nurture, and provide for those entrusted to their care.’[4]
What cultures can stop integrity being held as a shared aim? Last week I quoted Glanzer who articulates ‘we live in a BCD (blame, complain, and defend) culture. It is always someone else’s fault. The situation is bad. I am a victim. I have my rights.’[5] Parrish would suggest that those who have this victim mindset are those who lack self-accountability and ‘tend to run on autopilot’.
Parrish continues to potentially give the reasons for why some leaders don’t prioritize their own character and the journey to integrity. He proposes in agreement with Glanzer, that rather than taking responsibility, ‘they don’t take responsibility for their mistakes. Instead, they always try to blame other people, circumstances, or bad luck- nothings ever their fault.’ He exhorts us all that ‘there is always an action you can control, however tiny, that helps you achieve progress.’[6]
Parrish then explores another possible reason alongside the instinctive ability to blame and complain, that people seem to have an aversion to taking responsibility. He suggests it’s inertia. He explains that ‘the Latin word inertia means literally “inertness”: that is, laziness or idleness.’[7] He proposes that it is ‘why changing our minds is hard… and keeps us in jobs we hate and in relationships that don’t make us happy, because in both cases we know what to expect and it’s comforting to have our expectations reliably met.’[8] He continues to explain the comfort that can be found in living in dysfunction and having a lack of desire to focus on change because ‘keeping things the way they are requires almost no effort. This helps explain why we get complacent.’[9]
Transformation and facing the pain of past hurts and childhood wounds can be exhausting and relentless, and so the alternative to long term healing could fuel our human ‘desire to stay in our comfort zone, relying on old techniques or standards even when they’re no longer optimal’.[10] Alternatively the avoidance could be due to shame of our humanity and fragility. Parrish explains that ‘trying to avoid responsibility for your decisions, your actions, or their outcomes, though, is tantamount to pretending you don’t have limitations.’[11]
I am trying to understand more about why some leaders want to avoid the deep work of trauma recovery and instead seek status and affirmation, where instead of their commitment to integrity, the metrics of their success are money, influence and power.
#Parrish #DLGP04 #Integrity
[1] Shane Parrish. Clear Thinking. The Art and Science of Making Better Decisions. Penguin. 2023. 15.
[2] Shane Parrish. Clear Thinking. The Art and Science of Making Better Decisions. Penguin. 2023. Page 1
[3] Tom Nelson. The Flourishing Pastor. Recovering The Lost Art of Shepherd Leadership. (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2021), 47.
[4] Glenn Packiam, The Resilient Pastor: Leading Your Church in a Rapidly Changing World (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2022),197.
[5] Jules Glanzer. The Sound of Leadership. Kingdom Notes to Fine Tune Your Life and Influence. Invite Press. 2023. 110.
[6] Shane Parrish. Clear Thinking. 4.
[7] Ibid.30.
[8] Ibid. 31.
[9] Ibid.31.
[10] Ibid 31.
[11] Ibid. 115.
About the Author
Betsy
14 responses to “The Big Question I Didn’t Ask”
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Betsy, that’s an interesting question, and I wonder how Dr. Glanzer would have answered. I have a question about your question. When you say, “What happened to you to cause you to understand…” do you mean that this lesson is only or best learned through a challenging experience? Could you say more about that?
You also asked about how our cohort has learned that lesson. Here’s part of my story:
That character was solidified in me when I was on the mission field. I keep a newsletter from one of our denomination’s superintendents in my desk drawer. We eventually left the mission field because of that leader. He led the effort to close a church that was hesitant about him becoming the superintendent. The newsletter provided two encouraging points and elaborated on how the churches in those areas were growing and experiencing positive developments. Then a small sentence at the end said, sadly, this church will be closing.
We were missionaries and worked for the denomination. When I challenged him, he refused to engage with me, twisted my words, and sent people after me. We reached a point where we could no longer work for the denomination if that was the direction we were headed. Leaving the mission field was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. After we left, a few more churches and leaders left the denomination. They have planted more churches and now pretend that the conflict never happened. I keep that letter as a reminder of who I don’t want to become.
Thank you Robert. Your answer is exactly what I was desperately seeking.
I have spent the last 30 years in different kind of leadership roles and I have found it so devastating to discover so many of those I have met have been focused on metrics of success -that aren’t even Biblical- that made them lead in ways that were unkind, dehumanising and dominating. I have avoided leadership gatherings for a long time and I’ve joined this course and found so many authentic and kind people who seem to care deeply for integrity. That has shocked me. But then made me ask why some are able to lead with self awareness and integrity without selfish ambition and an over riding drive for external measures of success. My propositions for the possible reasons were my scribbles during the zoom, and I guess your story is closest to my proposed no 6. Your experience with that ungodly leader marked you and your future values. I’m grateful that you made that choice.
Thank you for sharing that. It really is helpful for me.
What a thoughtful and smart post. I will attempt to partially answer the question you desired to ask Dr. Glanzer. I had to stop and think to do so.
I would say that servant leadership was exampled to me by my father. This is hard for me to say, because I have a strained relationship with my father. He was an example working well with the addicts, rejected and marginalized because he was one of them. But I believe what motivated my dad was his need to be needed and to feel like a super hero to mask his deep insecurity. He tirelessly served others but wasn’t really ever available for me or because I think I didn’t seem to need him. I feel I was born a leader, first born (though, I’m a twin) and very independent in nature. (Besty, I’m sure you could tell me some things about even my time in the womb and very early experiences that may have encouraged this nature in me.) So, I was always thrusting myself into the leadership roles even in elementary school. I just believed this was what I was supposed to do- I felt responsible to do it. I am not fully clear on the reasons I felt this responsibility. You quote Parrish’s words on avoiding responsibility for what our actions bring about is like believing we don’t have limitations. This hits hard as I hate to know or admit my limitations. Your intro to the quote puts it right for me, “the avoidance could be due to shame of our humanity and fragility.” My vice in leadership is meeting my need to feel strong and significant. I try to remain aware of this and intentionally turn towards leading with integrity and selflessness like Jesus.
Thank you so much for your courageous honesty Jess- I do value that so much.
That ‘need to be needed’ motive seems to be so close to so much servant hearted leadership within church and community service doesn’t it. I like to test myself on it, although we all know that ‘our hearts are deceitful’ and ultimately I think we are quite dependant on others to be honest reflectors to us.
How fascinating that you are a twin and you have always been a strong leader with a sense of responsibility. I get that and was also like that.
I have also wrestled with shame about my limitations and fragility. It can make me angry as I have so many ideas and want to help people, but then the days aren’t quite long enough and I get tired! So I am still working on this and also want to make sure i don’t have impure motivations for the work I do!
Betsy –
I probably hang back too much in discussion, too–working in group facilitation around challenging subjects means learning to observe and interject only when it helps overcome roadblocks to understanding or reconciliation… that’s something I’m trying to “pause” in for the sake of full participation in our Zoom calls, but it’s hard!
As far as your last wonderment–why some leaders avoid the deeper work and pursue metrics where moths destroy and thieves break in and steal (cf. Matthew 6:19-21), my immediate thought was, “Mammon.” It’s an overly simplistic and simple response to your deep and wonderful question, but I think the idolatry of Mammon has seeped in to social and Church culture; I wonder if this part of why John leaves his haunting cry at the end of his first epistle: “Dear children, keep yourselves from idols”–they always move us toward destruction and away from thriving, even when they give us what we think we want (1 John 5:21, NIV).
Thanks Jeremiah. I figured I may not be the only one wrestling with finding my way with the zoom!
Yes- the idol of mammon that has seeped in to the global church culture is a shock isn’t it? I have been around some culture where success is measured by the male pastors watch make, which has horrified me! May Jesus always graciously expose to us all and any of our idols.
And than you for your reply to my question- thats very helpful. Maybe your motivation and desire to avoid leadership without a focus on character and integrity has been knowledge of Jesus and scripture then?
Thank you!
Yes, I think that’s a good way to put it, though I’d nuance it a bit more as not just “knowledge of” but “experiencing the aliveness of” Jesus and pursuit of thim in community and through scripture.
It may be a distinction without a difference, but I’m increasingly aware that while the word (scripture) is indeed alive, Jesus is the Living Word, and I don’t want to slip into verneration of scripture at the expense of the worship of Jesus.
Yes I do agree with the ‘experience the aliveness of Jesus.’ Totally. And I do pray many will on Resurrection Sunday tomorrow.
This is such an engaging post Betsy. Thank you for inviting us to reflect and for your honesty in the way you felt in the Zoom call. It is a tough space. There is so much goodness being initiated in our conversations, but not really the time to honor and tease out and offer thoughtful self-discovery. All the while, we are being graded for our participation. I definitely feel the tension in hanging back and listening as a facilitator and speaking up and sharing as a student. I would encourage you to SPEAK. We all learn so much when you speak. You are a gift to every conversation.
In your post you highlight the blame, complain, defend culture. (BCD) I really think this “culture” is a part of a cultural wound. One of my greatest core fears is the fear of being wrong. I will naturally do anything to not be seen as wrong. I can’t be. There is too much danger in my nervous system and alarms going off if I am questioned or called out in any way. There has been so many micro-punishments for being wrong in my culture. From physical punishment as a child, to shame and embarrassment publicly, to testing and early pedagogy, and on and on. My culture is set up to punish and shame mistakes. So, of course, if I am confronted, questioned, or just plain wrong, it is almost impossible to accept. The danger is too high and the memory is too strong. And of course the opposite is true. The celebration and admiration of being right.
Being wrong is not safe. Therefore (BCD) blame, complain, and defend is the way back to safety.
Now, your question “WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU TO CAUSE YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY ARE MORE IMPORTANT IN LEADERSHIP THAN A TITLE, POSITION AND HOW OTHERS VIEW YOU?” is that of a proper researcher. And your 7 possible causes cover much ground.
For me I would say that character nor integrity are a pursuit. They are a fruit. They are things that emerge from the probable examples you listed above. Meaning, If you go out and try to have good character and do the right thing, you are most likely living out conditioned or expected behavior patterns form a source of limited willpower at the expense of repressing your darker desires trapped in the shadow.
I believe you are spot on to ask “what happened to you..?”. For me it is a combination of burn out (3) and inner work (5). These things are humbling and leave no illusion that I can ambition my way into a good human. I have to die.
During this holy week, I am in awe of the way Jesus lives into death as the path to life. Watching him live into death and face it (even when he is not wrong) is helping me learn how to die into life. So I will toss in (1) as well.
Thanks Christian! I have been in denial about the grading of participation because as a therapist I don’t think I can speak to the detriment of another! It’s too counter intuitive. I won’t fight to win at anything if it hurts another- I just can’t!
Thank you for your honesty about your deep fear of being wrong and where that came from. That’s tough and so deeply unjust that you experienced that- especially as a child. Awful. I hope you have had opportunities to be wrong with loved ones who can hold space for you to feel the feelings and then notice you are alive and loved…repeated many times. We are all so complex and it can take so much repetition to re wire those neural pathways can’t it?!
Yes – you are right- character and integrity are indeed a fruit and if we tried to force that we can hide our fragility, vulnerability and mistakes to keep up an outward appearance that is surface level and doesn’t have the depth.
Thank you for answering my question. That is so helpful. So burn out, inner work and Jesus were your transforming factors. That’s fascinating and very helpful. I am wanting to see if anyone can find themselves prioritising character formation without having experienced trauma or been close to someone who has. What do you think?
Betsy-
I’ve kicked your question around a few times and then went back to make sure I’m answering what you are asking. I could simply write 1, 2, 4, 6, and possibly 7, but that is as helpful as opening a fortune cookie only to see my lucky numbers.
Rereading your qualifier ‘at an early age’ finally flipped the switch. I was a delegate at a statewide high school leadership camp. One of the exercises was to write down something that happened in your life that really hurt. I recounted a time listening to some other kids making fun of the struggles that an elderly disabled neighbor was enduring. They had no idea that my dad had just received a similar diagnosis and was facing the future that they mocked. One by one, the adult facilitator read the submissions anonymously. Some were pretty rough. When he read mine, he teared up and stopped reading. The takeaway for me is that we were this group of immature leaders and our lives were messed up. We were no better than those who weren’t invited to the camp. That one exercise significantly formed my views on responsibility and care for those who look to me for leadership. I was the privileged one. That fits with your 7.
Fast forward 25 years. We were in the midst of an operational crisis. I got word that the guy I was meant to eventually replace was seeking my boss to inform that I “lacked the operational experience” to do the job. This was while I was supporting the operational response seven days a week and he had no part in any of it. That hit your number 6.
Add those two together and you get (hopefully) the character and integrity that motivated me to give my manager position to someone else for their development. He wanted the promotion. I didn’t care about the title. Those two experiences have also contributed to how I’ve worked with my own successor, now some six years in the works. Yes, he lacked the experience back then, but he doesn’t today. Using my influence and position to lift him up felt much more satisfying than using the same to keep him in his place.
That leaves 1, 2, and 4. I believe without those ingredients, I would be much more likely to use power to oppress and not to grow and develop.
In reading Christian’s response, it appears we have ticked all 7.
Thank you so much for taking the time to reflect, consider and reply. This is so helpful for me to understand how leaders have chosen to walk a different path to the many leaders who are harming others. This is fascinating and I am sorry that you had to hear other kids making fun of someone with disability when you knew your dad had that diagnosis. Thats really tough.
Your adult work life experiences are also painful but clearly you have used them as fuel for your compassionate and kind leadership approach- which is profound.
I wonder if it’s possible to be so deeply committed to leading with integrity without having experienced bad leadership or nastiness of some kind from others (in a culture that normalised it), in a way that causes a deep emotional response? I need to ask more people!
Thank you so much for this reply and your vulnerability here. I’m grateful for your commitment to Godly leadership.
Betsy,
I cannot invest the time or energy to fully answer your question in a single sitting or blog post. That would be a disservice and would not give a representative and worthy response. This is a highly in-depth topic, and I appreciate your interest in exploring these layers further.
My journey as a leader has been less than traditional, and there have been some rough patches. However, when I processed probably the one singular and transformational moment for me personally, I realized that my unwillingness to compromise my integrity caused me to leave my job. It was a “soulless” culture, and I chose to move on.
I was raised in a demanding yet nourishing household. As an only child, I wasn’t required to share much, but we didn’t have much, which made life a bit simpler.
Over the years, my close friends have commented on how demanding it must have been to live under the roof of a father of a coach. I responded, “Yes, it was tough, but that is only half the story. Try living under the roof of a coach and a commercial fisherman.” Those early years were quite formative.
Thank you Mike for your reply. I do understand that it is a deep and profound exploration that does need time and probably some safe, therapeutic ‘in person’ spaces to really do it justice.
Well done to you for leaving your job because it compromised your integrity. I expect that took a lot of courage and felt uncomfortable.
I am intrigued by your description of your childhood household as ‘demanding but nourishing.’ It sounds like there are some deep and life transforming stories that you have that need to be told carefully.
Thank you for taking the time to answer and thank you for trusting us here with these insights.