Looking under the hood
I am a PK…in other word’s a Pastor’s kid. In fact, I’m (or was) a pastor’s Grandkid, Pastor’s niece, Pastor’s sister-in-law, Pastor’s wife and Pastor. I have grown up inside the fishbowl of a ministry family. I start this way because I want to orient why I am a harsh critic of the church and leadership within. I have watched many a Pastor “fall” or toxic leadership within a system that broke the pastor down. I loved a lot of what I read in Tom Comacho’s book Mining for Gold. I also felt some resistance to some of it as well.
Some of the resistance I have is feeling challenged by using God as He language, in full transparency I strongly dislike this. I struggled with this my growing up years as a female in a conservative church. I was “chosen” repeatedly to be a leader at school, in my youth group, etc.…yet I failed to see any women leading the church and was often told (and sometime still get told I can’t be a leader or clergy). I’m sure there are many women here who have experienced this very failure of leadership and understanding of the Bible. I do appreciate that he talked about Esther “Her natural beauty drew him close, but her character and insight set her apart. He saw Gold in Her” (Comacho, pg 58) Esther has always been a hero and mentor for me as a female embodied leader…recognizing that mentor other future leaders…seeing their Gold was “For Such a Time as this” Esther 4:14. However it’s sad to me that the mentoring Esther had was on how her first night with the King will go. I don’t want to gloss over that, she had to use her body and looks to gain a voice though it is said it was her character and insight that made him see her gold. I marvel that the world as modern as it is, still has this wrestling with how we view women, and it is usually looks and attraction first and character later. I participated in an online group of clergy women whose sole purpose was to wrestle with what we would wear while preaching so as not to draw attention or distract. The church must do better…it’s time. Women leaders in the church and ministry setting need more women coaching for the journey and male allyship…it’s not an easy place to be. Therefore, even though it seems simple to get the idea of what He language for God means, I have come to believe that inclusive language always matters, I am made in the image of God.
I have a few things in myself that lent me to really appreciate, feel convicted by and Amen and dog-ear a chapter in this book, chapter 11: The Cross: God’s Great Refining Tool. My NPO and ministry context can be a bit of a downer, as I am a Hospice Chaplain and my NPO is around talking about Death! I live in the paradox that I am an Enneagram 7, the enthusiast so at least when I talk about death, I’m enthusiastic about it? Enneagram 7’s are known for avoiding pain, and this has become a real gift and curse. On one hand I can absolutely listen and bear witness to another’s human suffering without taking it on as my own. This lends to longevity in a very difficult and heavy job environment. It also means if I am not tending to my own pain, it can become easy to experience transference with my patients and work out my pain and grief by “fixing” it for them. There is a saying in grief work that “if you don’t work your grief, your grief will work you.”
In the church and in leadership, dying to self can be one of the biggest challenges I’ve seen leaders face. Ego can be healthy and yet can quickly get out of balance when not checked. One challenge I see leaders face is jealousy and envy and have watched churches and non-profits be destroyed by raising leaders but feeling threatened by growth in these leaders. In chapter 2, Comacho mentions a quality that “Barnabas was not afraid to let another leader outshine him”.(Comacho, pg 41) Now I love this quote, but once again this could be interpreted differently because it implies a “reluctant” leader is of higher quality then those who are not reluctant which can be understood very differently from a female perspective, “Play small”, “don’t be too big for your britches”, etc. But I suppose this leads to the overall problem of leadership that we walk on a razors edge of Being Gold and seeing Gold in others but must do so with confidence yet with humility! Wow, what a challenge. Tom Comacho utilizes a word that I think encapsulates all of this and it’s an under preached, misunderstood concept in a lot of churches but in my work in spiritual pain at the end of life… we must understand and extend Grace. “Build a culture of Grace”, “Grace is God’s supernatural power to change everything. Rules don’t change people, Grace does.” (Comacho, pg 79). “Grace gives us the courage to look under the hood of our life and leadership.” (Comacho, pg 48).
About the Author
Jana Dluehosh
Jana serves as a Spiritual Care Supervisor for Signature Hospice in Portland, OR. She chairs the corporate Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging committee as well as presents and consults with chronically ill patients on addressing Quality of Life versus and alongside Medical treatment. She has trained as a World Religions and Enneagram Spiritual Director through an Anam Cara apprenticeship through the Sacred Art of Living center in Bend, OR. Jana utilizes a Celtic Spirituality approach toward life as a way to find common ground with diverse populations and faith traditions. She has mentored nursing students for several years at the University of Portland in a class called Theological Perspectives on Suffering and Death, and has taught in the Graduate Counseling program at Portland Seminary in the Trauma Certificate program on Grief.27 responses to “Looking under the hood”
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Jana, thank you for underscoring the role of grace in all things. It is indeed a difficult concept to understand and put into practice. It’s rare and yet, when you’re truly in an atmosphere of grace it’s unmistakable. There’s nothing like it. I usually burst into tears immediately because I sense such freedom to be myself, warts and all. Why is it so challenging to truly cultivate that atmosphere in our churches?
On an unrelated note, I wonder if you’ve come across Caleb Wilde’s writing in the course of your work/study? As I recall it’s not academic-level but he shares some beautifully-written reflections about death and grief from his work as a funeral director.
Thank you Kim for recommendation of the book, I’ll have to look into it! I am going to have such a long list of books by the end of all of this! Thank goodness we had to read How to Read a Book! That changed my entire perspective on reading and no longer feel so frozen thinking of a long list of books to read. I also appreciate your response to Grace. I agree it is so difficult to fully understand the abundance of Grace God has for us! I loved the Quote from Camacho that said Grace gives us the courage to “look under the hood” of our own lives. Grace towards ourselves seems to be the hardest and I believe we can’t truly give it to others if we are not able to give it to ourselves!
Jana, Thank you for drawing our attention to the burden women in ministry carry for being female and desiring/being called to preach, minister and pray publicly. One of my favorite pastors and now friend served in the Presbyterian church for more than 30 years successfully and by that I mean she stayed for the long haul. When I asked her once how she did it, she humbly explained that she chose to not ever draw attention to her femininity. Her statement made me feel deeply sad. She claims some things are different now. On another note, have you read Beth Allison Barr’s book titled, The Making of Biblical Womanhood?
It’s sad to me too, to hear that your friend survived or survives in ministry by not drawing attention to her womanhood. Our entire culture needs to continue to empower this femininity including the church. A good litmus test for our churches is to switch the language around from the pulpit and use feminine pronouns in place of the masculine and see what discomfort that causes you? Do members in your church squirm in the pew when God is described as She? Thank you for the ways you support your friend in the church!
I’ve also always struggled with interpretations of Esther that don’t recognize she was forced to use her body to find entry to power. And I took issue with Camacho’s interpretation of this story as I don’t see anywhere in scripture that indicates the King accepted her because of her character; maybe it was simply because she was best in bed out of all the virgins he sexually assaulted!?
Yes the church must do better engaging, equipping and fully empowering women as leaders and not gloss over those philosophical, theological and practical issues that have stopped us from doing so.
I am a product of strong women in ministry: A great-great-great grandmother who evangelized across the US in the 19th Century, and a woman evangelist-pastor who started the denomination I serve. Not in spite of their genders… God used their gender as part of the design of their lives and impact.
Keep swinging for the fences, Jana. As one made in the image of God you have a call to make a BIG impact.
Tim, I feel seen and heard by you and I cannot describe how comforting and validating it is to hear you describe Esther’s story as sexual assault. I get that “times” and expectations were different, and I am so aware of all of the many women in the Bible who remain nameless and voiceless. If many of us are wondering why so many people are leaving the church, we have to, have to, have to be honest with what it is we “skim” over in our reading of scripture and as I attest to, say when we notice non-inclusive language and to not just let it slide by. I almost posted nothing about this and just picked out all the best things I liked about his book, but I am calling myself to a higher standard of using my voice…it took me YEARS to find it and I have to have courage to use it. I posted and then panicked. My husband is my biggest ally and companion for me to be bold so I am so thankful for his mentorship and equal partnership in ministry, marriage and family life! So grateful for the men in my life who hear me and say yes..swing for the fences…Thank you!
Hello fellow Enneagram SEVEN!
It’s interesting that you are tackling the topic of death, and I am finding my topic of “joy in ministry” slowing morphing into the connection between “joy and suffering.” Perhaps there’s something in us 7’s that is being confronted with our “avoidance of pain”, as well as our deep need for the very grace that we promote to others. In other words: “are we buying what we’re selling / eating what we’re cooking?”
Unrelated question (related to your blog, but not to my reply)…the first half of your post addressed gender language. Clarify for me (no accusation, just curiosity): are you contending for better recognition (in books, churches, etc) of females, or are you contending that God be addressed in both genders? Not sure if I’ve articulated my question well. As a local church leader, I earnestly want to be more inclusive of women – and seek to dismantle any wrong or misapplied biases that may reside in my heart or language. Thank you, sincerely.
Hi there 7, I see you! I love that your Joy topic and my Death and Suffering project have so much intersection. You are right, I always tell my grieving families that the reason they are experiencing such deep grief and pain is because they have had the deep experience of Joy! Joy means suffering and suffering comes from Joy, they are the opposite sides of the same coin! One can’t be without the other. My theological emphasis in my project is Joy and Hope. Accepting death is not the opposite of Hope. It’s what brings it to the heart of the matter!
To your other sincere question about whether I am asking for better representations in books or using both genders with God, I answer its yes to both. I don’t think Camacho meant anything about it, or honestly maybe didn’t even think twice about using He language when talking about God. I am turning to inquiry and wonder and assume the best in him, that it’s just how it always is and it’s the natural way to do so. I feel in doctorate level work on Leadership, and in mining for Gold in finding and mentoring other leaders we have to be inclusive. I would say as a pastor of a church what would it look like for you to switch the pronoun to she when talking about God? If we squirm or feel uncomfortable when we talk about God as a she.. then we have to turn to inquiry and wonder in ourselves. I use an inclusive bible translation, and was part of a church that did things like change the wording of the Doxology to be Creator, Son and Holy Ghost instead of Father. Father is one of God’s many attributes but is also masculine and is appropriate when thinking of God in relation to Jesus, however God is also creator, I feel closer to God myself with this understanding as I am a mother, I feel an embodied connection to God through creation. I know some who cannot experience God’s love because of their own relationship to their earthly followers, for some it’s healing to understand God as what a Father should be, yet for others its a trigger that further separates from them. I’m getting a little wordy here, but the basic thing I’m hoping for as we develop as leaders in this world, is to be very aware of inclusivity and bring women up into the world. Not squash our male counterparts, but be in full-partnership with them. This also goes into other marginalized voices as well, which is where this Global Perspective is absolutely a gift to us if we fully embrace it. It will change us!
JANA! YES! And THANK YOU for saying how you struggled with the language Camacho used for God – how it was entirely patriarchal. I too felt so much resistance to the entire book because every single image used for God was male. Camacho even referred to the Holy Spirit as a “he.” I am grateful to serve a denomination that uses inclusive language so when I hear otherwise it really grates on me. I appreciate that you were part of a clergy group that focused on what to wear while preaching but also so sad that that even has to exist! What. The. Heck? It has become a running joke among our pastoral staff about what kind of comments I will receive each Sunday about my outfit. I’ve heard ALL kinds of things. A very long time ago in another state while guest preaching I had a woman shake my hand at the end of the service and say to me, “I couldn’t even look at you because of all that make up you are wearing! And don’t even get me started on your dangling earrings!” I wanted to retort, “Well you could use some make up lady.” But I did not.
All this to say, thank you for calling out Camacho on this. I wanted to write an entire blog post about my resistance to many things in this book – including his patriarchal language but I did not because I’ve just had knee surgery and am still on pain meds and was afraid I’d take it too far.
Another thing that Camacho said that I did take issue with was that we need clarity in knowing who God is. I understand what he was saying but I feel very differently. God is and should be a mystery or God is not God. I mean, yeah, we know God is love and we can know God through the person of Jesus but ultimately, God is bigger and greater than anything we can fully know. Okay, I’m going to step off my soap box now and finish up this comment.
I’d love to have coffee sometime and get to know each other better!
Kally…I pray that you are healing. I want to hear more about the mystery of God. Are you saying that God is greater than anything that we can imagine? I totally agree with that and I also desire to know God. I wonder if that is what Camacho is trying to express…a desire to know God versus a need for clarity. Maybe I will have an opportunity to ask him on Monday.
Thanks Jonita! I am (slowly) healing!
Yes, I am saying that God is greater than anything we can begin to imagine. Our minds are not capable of understanding God and if we think they are, then it is probably not God. In a blog post from January 27, 2020, Richard Rohr writes, “It’s amazing how religion has turned the biblical idea of faith around 180 degrees into a need and even a right to certain knowing, complete predictability, and perfect assurance about whom and what God likes or doesn’t like. Why do we think we can have the infinite Mystery of God in our quite finite pocket? In this schema God is no longer free but must follow our rules and our theology…” God is ultimate mystery and I think when God ceases to be ultimate mystery God ceases to be God. That said, we’ve got Jesus, who Christians believe to be God in the flesh! We can know about God, maybe even know God, through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
Camacho points to the scriptures as ways to know God – which I agree with AND I also find many scriptures that contradict each other about God. God gets mad. God changes God’s mind. God loves. God is good. Stories about God’s presence and God’s absence. I don’t have a problem with any of that because…God is what God is. Basically, I get my hackles up when I hear people prescribe how I should be able to “know” God because that feels limiting to God – like putting God in a box of my making. I find my faith deepening when I embrace the mystery of God.
I say all of this also trusting that God is very close to each and every one of us. As expansive as God is, God is also as close. This probably doesn’t even make any sense…but isn’t that true of faith? It doesn’t “make sense” but it can be trusted.
Richard Rohr continues in the blog post I mentioned above, saying, “The Desert Fathers and Mothers gave birth to what we call the apophatic tradition, knowing by silence and symbols, and not even needing to know with words. It amounted to a deep insight into the nature of faith that was eventually called the ‘cloud of unknowing’ or the balancing of knowing with not needing to know. Deep acceptance of ultimate mystery is ironically the best way to keep the mind and heart spaces always open and always growing.”
I do think Camacho was trying to express a desire to know God versus a need for clarity about God. Like I said, I just get my hackles up when I hear people trying to prescribe a way to know God. Aaaaaand, I’ve been sitting on my couch for days now trying to heal this knee so I’m going a little stir crazy!
Kally…first of yes to coffee, let’s do it! I’m sure Oxford will have good coffee shops;). And secondly, phew. I hit publish and instantly went into a spiral of what did you just do Jana. I have spent my whole life agreeing with everything and being very sevenish is Enneagram by reframing any discomfort I’ve had into something positive and it’s how I got through college and my Master’s degree. I complied, I regurgitated and I passed. I am determined to own this doctorate, it’s mine, and it’s what I make of it so I must speak. When you posted I took a huge big breath. I’m glad I was not the only one. I am thankful for your thoughts and with the ways you struggled through this book as well. In the end, without being too compliant, I felt that the biggest lesson I took away from book was the role of grace. Speak truth, use my voice not only for my own marginalized voice, but as a way to empower others who feel marginalized. I have a responsibility as a privileged white woman to speak into these things. All my work in Diversity and Equity has taught me that I must speak, even if it’s painful and calls others to pain. Healing happens when we enter pain, but being present to and embracing pain is what brings transformation. Transformation is what our world needs and I pray all of us will leave this Doctorate transformed and changed:) (I realize you are actually laying there in pain, so giving grace to your self to maybe numb the pain away is okay too:)). Can’t wait to get to know you more!
YES! Thank you for your comments on this subject. Ester is one of my favorite Books of the Bible and I have heard many male preachers do it a grave injustice by focusing on the superficial attributes. The role of women in ministry is one that I struggle with, and factor in being an African-American woman it is a constant fight to be heard and seen and valued. It’s disappointing that this is still happening in a place where there should be an abundance of love and safety.
Jonita, thanks for your feedback and affirmation. I just ordered a book that I think I’m going to use in my research on intersectional theology. I want to do whatever I can in my research, in my NPO, in my life, to utilize a bit of my marginality and a lot of my privilege to raise voices of others. I am working very hard to be of strong courage to stand up and demand better. I’m excited to be on this journey with you Jonita. I see you and hear you.
Jana, I appreciate you using your experience and perspective to bring light to things that many of us may not notice. There are many ideas that are “givens” or “norms”, especially when it comes to theology or biblical interpretation, that need addressing or evaluation.
I remember Dr. Allen Boesak in Cape Town saying the best thing many of us can do is read or listen to theology from minority and marginalized perspectives. God gave you your environments, perspective, and experiences for such a time as this. Thanks for sharing.
Adam, my brother and companion on the journey, I am so thankful to have met you and to have these challenging and inspired conversations with. Thank you for your points of view and your strong work in inclusivity on multiple layers and leading with such courage! The world and church world is better because your in it!
Jana, thank you for sharing your background and experiences. I had not considered that perspective when thinking about the story of Esther. I have always been in awe at how God is able to take what we have been though and repurpose it, recycle, and reuse for OUR greater good (should we choose to trust and follow). Thankful for the God’s faithful love, the redeeming work that is completed in grace, through faith, on our behalf.
Thank you Cathy. Yes, I love Esther, I love her story and I love what it says about “For such a time as this”. And, not or, really diving into what really happened and not glossing over the whole story to the clean and pretty parts of it seems important work. Not to take away the meaning and importance, but to acknowledge the relationship is “complicated”.
Thank you Jana,
You said more than I dared to say. I admire your courage! I remember reading children’s Bible story versions of Esther to my daughters saying to myself, “That’s not all that happened” and wondering how and when I should share the rest of the story. I also cannot remember ever hearing a Sunday sermon on Esther. How would you present this story to children or to an entire church on Sunday morning?
Oh, Jenny. What a hard question to answer! I think a whole curriculum could be written about this based on age groups and appropriateness as we all know the Bible if all of it were played out on screen would be definitely an R rating or TVMA! I think what I would have appreciated as a young girl or woman was someone who could ask me what did I notice in this story? Asking questions of how do we partner with God on difficult situations and transform that pain? Maybe asking if this story happened today what would happen to the king? Did Esther have a chance to give consent? What else could Esther do from her now powerful platform as Queen to change the way the story goes for girls after her? Asking questions like if you were Esther, what about her story makes you sad or mad or scared? I think our young girls and boys need us to address the subvert over-sexualization of femininity as a way to gain power. Here we have examples of it in the Bible and I’m not sure we are doing anyone any favors to present purity from a Biblical standard and not talk about this ugly stuff but send them out into the world to wrestle with it day in and day out. This leads to shame on all our young boys and girls which leads to secrecy. I have had conversations with my ministry friends when we hear a Pastor has fallen into sin, and it’s directed to men, but we know women are not above being led astray, but the first question we ask is was is wallet or weiner? I don’t know if I am be courageous now or what, but I truly believe we need to talk about this stuff as leaders in the church. I believe Camacho started the book talking about the hold of the Devil on a powerful leader, which is probably accurate but it keeps it on a mysterious spiritual level as if we maybe don’t have a say in what happens to us or the decisions we make? The devil made me do it? I honestly don’t know, but I hope we all can be courageous and talk about the hard stuff too! I truly am not trying to be provocative or push agenda, and I hope I didn’t offend anyone, I just crave authenticity sooooo much!
You answered my question so thoughtfully and beautifully. Thank you for taking the time to do so. You have given me much to think about.
COME ON, LADY! Oohhh, I loved your post! Jana, when you wrote,”In the church and in leadership, dying to self can be one of the biggest challenges I’ve seen leaders face..One challenge I see leaders face is jealousy and envy and have watched churches and non-profits be destroyed by raising leaders but feeling threatened by growth in these leaders.” I resonated with you!
I did not grow up ever exposed to anything religious. Therefore, when I became a Christian, I saw so much unhealthiness, that believers saw as normal or at least they took it for granted. And you know what, there was a time when I was a youth pastor that I had jealousy and envy in my heart towards my friend’s youth ministry because it was larger than mine. I wrestled with that for a long time.
After reading your post I intentionally asked myself, “Am I allowing myself to be jealous or envious of anyone’s ministry? Thank you for your post!
Todd, I am so glad you resonated but also disturbed. I realize I’m putting some spotlights on behaviors and skimming over of things within the church and usually it’s those who have left the church who leave because it rings as hypocrisy. It says a lot that you came into church later and saw what was happening and the honest truth that you also had these feelings. Me too! We all do, leadership is a razors edge! And the cure could be a good ol’ look in the mirror! Thank you Todd for your discernment, self awareness and honesty!
Jana, you’re welcome for the feedback. I have never heard the phrase, “Leadership is a razors edge!” Can you please unpackaged that for me?
I used that 2x now and did not explain so thanks for making me unpack that for myself. I mean we often lift up and build pedestals for our leaders in our culture. I think the higher the pedestal the thinner the platform. The razors edge is the high accountability needed, and on one side is all the good a leader does and mentors and utilizes for the Kingdom as Camacho says, but I think these conversations are also noting the shadow side, the ease of which ego and loss of self and accountability can go the other way. Leadership and fame and influence can puff up the ego and soon we are making decisions we wouldn’t normally because we have influence and get away with it. I am thinking the best things leaders can do when mining for gold is to continue an accountability relationship with someone who continues to refine the Gold in us. Helping us do what you mentioned previously, look honestly at ourselves and our jealousies or pride or whatever else may start growing in an unhealthy way so that we may continue to do the kingdom work of Mining Gold! Did that unpack it or complicate the question?
Oh! My! Now, I have language to what I’ve been thinking and saying. Yes, you definitely unpacked it well for me. Being in an accountability relationship where we are profoundly being refined is so important! I really liked your comment about having influence but getting away with decisions we would not normally do. Yes, leadership is a razors edge!😊
Jana,
I have read every word previous to this comment. Fascinating discussion.
“I’m a PK” grabbed me. I am a PK too.
Thank you for sharing your PK background and it’s impact on you and your view of the church and it’s leadership.
You do some amazing work with those who are grieving. This work can be heart wrenching. As a Marriage Family Counselor, I work with those who have faced death and are grieving. I know the work you do. I can’t imagine having only clients dealing with grief and loss issues. I pray God graces you in coming along side those who are hurting.
Kristy Newport DLGP01