Leading Through the Impossible: Conversations about Narcissism in Ministry
Pastoral ministry is built on conversations, vision-shaping meetings, hallway chats, and late-night calls. Most are life-giving. Some, however, feel impossible.
Before addressing the theme of the book, I want to name a concern. In today’s climate, the label “narcissist” is hurled at pastors far too easily. Any leader who shows conviction, confidence,or clarity can quickly be branded as domineering or self-absorbed. This overuse not only cheapens the word but unfairly discredits pastors who carry immense responsibility with integrity. At the same time, narcissism in ministry is real. Some leaders do exploit, manipulate, and harm those entrusted to their care. It is this reality, the coexistence of false accusations and genuine dysfunction, that makes discerning and addressing narcissism so “impossible”.
And it is precisely why How to Have Impossible Conversations[1] by Peter Boghossian and James Lindsay is so helpful. Though not written for ministry, the book provides tools for navigating the kinds of conversations pastors find themselves in, whether with congregants, colleagues, or themselves. Talking about narcissism often feels like an impossible task, but the book shows how these conversations can be survived and even redeemed.
Boghossian and Lindsay argue that most conversations fail because participants try to win rather than understand.[2] Their antidote is humility, empathy, and active listening. But with narcissism, listening alone will not suffice. Narcissists exploit empathy as a weakness. They thrive in systems where words flow but accountability does not. Yet here is the tension: leaders who resist narcissism are often accused of being narcissists themselves. When pastors set boundaries or make decisive calls, some interpret this as arrogance. This is why discernment is critical. Edgar Schein’s model of “humble leadership”[3] reminds us that humility in dialogue does not mean surrendering authority. It means seeing the other as human while refusing to be manipulated. This sets up the next challenge for the pastor: if humility is not weakness, how do leaders stop narcissism from shaping them internally? That leads us to the shadow.
Carl Jung described the “shadow” as the repressed parts of the self that, left unacknowledged, erupt destructively.[4] Narcissists are often dominated by shadow, constructing false selves and projecting blame. But pastors must also face their own shadow in these conversations: the hunger for admiration, the fear of rejection, the temptation to control. Simon Walker, in The Undefended Leader, warns that unless leaders confront their backstage vulnerabilities, they risk replicating the very dysfunction they oppose.[5] For pastors, this means that accusations of narcissism must drive us to deeper self-examination. Even when misplaced, accusations can expose shadows that need Christ’s light. If shadows are one danger, oversimplifications are another. To see how the wider conversation about narcissism can go wrong, we turn to a personal critique of A Church Called Tov.
Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer’s A Church Called Tov[6] seeks to create healthier cultures, but it too easily equates strong pastoral leadership with fear-based narcissism. At times, it reads like a gossip column, shaming fallen pastors in ways that encourage curiosity about their sins rather than sober reflection. Its framing is also narrow. By reducing complex dynamics to a single negative style, it ignores the diversity of leadership approaches from autocratic to pioneering. It fails to grapple with cultural dimensions: Geert Hofstede’s research[7] shows that Americans often accept higher power-distance than cultures like the UK, where accountability is prized. To universalise one cultural lens is shallow and misleading. Even more problematic, Tov scapegoats senior pastors while excusing the complicity of boards, associates, and congregations. This kind of one-sided narrative fuels the unhealthy trend of labelling pastors “narcissists” whenever culture goes wrong. The gospel calls us to shared accountability, not easy accusations. If Tov highlights what not to do, How to Have Impossible Conversations offers practical ways forward. Their strategies help leaders engage narcissists without losing themselves.
Boghossian and Lindsay outline several practices pastors can adopt in conversations. While they list them as advanced skills, I would argue that they should become the “bread and butter” of all pastors. The practices include:
- KEEP RAPPORT’S RULES: Re-express, list points of agreement, mention what you learned, only rebut.
- AVOID FACTS: Do not bring facts into a conversation.
- SEEK DISCONFIRMATION: How could that belief be incorrect?
- YES, AND…: Eliminate the word but from your spoken vocabulary.
- DEALING WITH ANGER: Know thyself.[8]
In conversations with narcissists, pastors must remain curious enough to engage, courageous enough to confront, and discerning enough to walk away when necessary. Grace in conversation does not mean appeasement. It means patience with people, but also protection of the vulnerable from manipulation. This sets up the final, sobering reality: sometimes the only faithful step is to end the conversation altogether.
Boghossian and Lindsay acknowledge that sometimes the wisest course is “exit stage left.”[9] This is particularly true when dialogue becomes abusive. Jesus Himself modelled this: at times He questioned the Pharisees, at other times He walked away in silence. For pastors, this discernment is crucial. Some conversations must continue for reconciliation; others must end for the protection of the church.
And it brings us to the heart of the matter: impossible conversations are not only about what is said, but about who the leader is becoming in the process. Conversations with narcissists are the most impossible of all. They test the leader’s patience, expose their shadow, and threaten the health of the community. Boghossian and Lindsay’s framework helps pastors navigate these moments with boundaries, clarity, and courage. In all of this, pastors and church members must resist the cultural tendency to weaponise the label of narcissism against faithful leaders. The church does not need gossip or scapegoating; it needs wisdom, grace, and discernment. And wisdom begins with leaders who can engage in the impossible
[1] Peter Boghossian and James A. Lindsay, How to Have Impossible Conversations: A Very Practical Guide (New York: Da Capo Lifelong Books, 2019).
[2] Ibid, 12.
[3] Edgar H. Schein and Peter A. Schein, Humble Leadership: The Power of Relationships, Openness, and Trust (Oakland, CA: Berrett-Koehler Publishers, 2023.
[4] C. G. Jung, Aion: Researches into the Phenomenology of the Self, trans. R. F. C. Hull (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1969), 8–12.
[5] Simon P. Walker, The Undefended Leader (Carlisle: Piquant, 2007), 83–88.
[6] Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing (Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale Momentum, 2020).
[7] Geert Hofstede, Culture’s Consequences: Comparing Values, Behaviors, Institutions, and Organizations across Nations, 2nd ed. (Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications, 2001), 79–80.
[8] Boghossian and Lindsay, Impossible Conversations, 95.
[9] Ibid, 30.
About the Author
Glyn Barrett
I am the founding & lead Pastor of !Audacious Church in Manchester, England. I was born in Manchester, but moved to Australia at the age of two. My wife and I were married in Australia and began married and ministry life in England 29 years ago. After serving as youth pastors for 12 years, we moved to Manchester to pioneer !Audacious Church. As a church we now have 7 locations. 3 in Manchester, Chester, Cardiff (Wales), Sheffield, and Geneva (Switzerland). In 2019 I became the National Leader of Assemblies of God in Great Britain. We have over 650 churches in our movement and have planted 98 new churches since May 2022 with a goal of planting 400 new churches between May 2022 and May 2028. I am the Global Chair for Church planting for Assemblies of God which currently has 420,000 churches and also chair Empowered21 Europe. I'm happily married to Sophia, with two children, one dog and two motorbikes. I love Golf, coffee and spending time with friends. I love to laugh, make friends and create memories!12 responses to “Leading Through the Impossible: Conversations about Narcissism in Ministry”
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Glyn,
There are some high-profile pastor’s I’ve considered narcissistic, but most often if I am questioning the pastor/leader its toxic leadership is see exhibited. I appreciate your comment “Even more problematic, Tov scapegoats senior pastors while excusing the complicity of boards, associates, and congregations.” We need to place responsibility where it belongs, and we know most often the senior pastor is not solely responsible for the chaos/toxicity that develop inside the church walls.
While I have only gotten to know you a little over the past couple years, you seem to naturally practice humility. However, given your position of leadership and influence what safeguards do you have that keeps you humble, besides your wife and kids?
Thank you for your kind comment. Admittedly, for us all, humility is a work in progress; it’s not static, it’s a discipline to be practised. “Tov” is problematic: it tends to scapegoat the senior pastor when, in reality, boards, associates, and congregations all contribute to the culture. Healthy or unhealthy environments are rarely, and probably never, the product of one individual.
Your question about safeguards is really important. Beyond my wife and kids, I intentionally build accountability with my leadership teams to varying degrees. I work with a board and senior team, some of whom have full permission to challenge me. I also have a pastor and board member outside my context who can be brutally honest because they don’t “owe” me anything. Spiritual practices keep me grounded in the reality that the church belongs to Jesus, not me. And I try to reflect regularly on my own shadow, knowing I’m not immune to ego or blind spots.
Our decisions as a team are taken in the most part collaboratively now, and I very rarely drive my decision alone if it doesn’t hold up to the weight of team wisdom.
See you in Cape Town, my friend.
Thanks Glynn for your post! In your opinion, how can pastors and congregations together create a culture where accountability is practiced without weaponizing the label of narcissism?”
Thanks Ryan. I think the key is distinguishing accountability from accusation. Healthy accountability is rooted in clarity, transparency, and mutual trust, not in labels. Too often “narcissist” is thrown around as a catch-all critique, but that only shuts conversation down. Pastors and boards can build a better culture by agreeing on shared values, practicing honest feedback both ways, and ensuring boards and teams carry their share of responsibility with the congregation. In that kind of environment, accountability sharpens us without scapegoating, and correction becomes an act of grace rather than condemnation.
Glyn! Thank you for this and the clarity on how we assert and affix narcissism to confident pastors and leaders. If I were at your church, I would say, Amen!
What boundaries have you set when dealing with narcissistic conversations?
Thank you Daren! Boundaries are essential when dealing with narcissistic conversations. For me, that means: keeping the focus on clear facts rather than endless debate, refusing to let the conversation spiral into personal attacks, and setting time limits so the dialogue doesn’t consume a disproportionate amount of energy. I also make sure conversations don’t happen in isolation, I’ll usually bring another leader into the room so accountability is shared. Most importantly, I remind myself that my role is to protect the health of the church community, not to “win” the exchange.
Glyn, Great post in addressing a real issue. This is such a key statement: “Impossible conversations are not only about what is said, but about who the leader is becoming in the process.” In the head of impossible conversations, it is easy to forget the importance of my own growth. Your list of rules for pastors is relevant to any ministry setting and even other leadership situations. Which of these do you find to be the most challenging to apply?
Thank you Kari. You’re right, in the heat of impossible conversations it’s easy to forget that leadership isn’t just about managing others but also about shaping who we are becoming. Of the safeguards I listed, the most challenging for me is self-reflection on my own shadow. In the heat of the moment and without consciously taking a breath to become a ‘non-anxious presence,’ it’s easier to see flaws in others than focus on my part. Yet if I don’t keep that discipline alive, I risk reacting defensively rather than responding wisely. Having trusted voices around me helps, but the inner work is ongoing. For me, it’s a reminder that humility isn’t automatic, it’s a daily practice.
HI Glyn, thank you for your thoughtful post. One thing that stood out to me was in one of your comments when you said, “My role is to protect the health of the church community, not to ‘win’ the exchange”. That is true in so many leadership contexts. But the comment that jumped out was that these conversations are more about who the leader is becoming within them. As you enter difficult conversations, can you sense God’s presence and encouragement? I pray it is evident for you.
Thank you. Yes, I’ve often found that in the most difficult conversations, when my instinct is to defend or retreat, God’s presence becomes most real. Not always in a dramatic sense, but in a quiet reminder of His grace, His patience, and His call to shepherd people rather than prove myself right. I’m aware that the growth God is working in me through these conversations may be as significant as the outcome of the conversations themselves.
Thank you, Mr. Glyn, for the insightful post. It is very interesting how you waved narcissism into leadership and the ministry. What would be a basic way to deal or to avoid narcissism as a leader and in the ministry? Thank you again, Mr. Glyn.
Hi Noel. A basic but vital way to avoid narcissism in leadership is to keep accountability and humility close at hand. Practically, it means surrounding yourself with people who can speak truthfully to you, staying planted in spiritual disciplines that remind you the church belongs to Christ, not you, and leading with transparency so decisions are shared rather than hidden. The simplest safeguard is to keep our hearts soft before God and our lives open before trusted people.