Duffy, Gallup, and Woodward on Church Leadership
Church leadership in the West has had a rocky road in recent years.
Bobby Duffy and clergy trust
In the UK, trust in clergy has been on the decline. Public policy researcher Bobby Duffy actually noted this before the pandemic in his book Why We’re Wrong About Nearly Everything, during a time when many other professions had seen an uptick in trust. In 2018, Duffy wrote, “In fact, in our polls in the UK dating back to 1983, the most common pattern we observe is an increase in trust, in all sorts of professions, from civil servants to trade union officials to the police.”[1] This was not the case, however, among pastors. “Indeed, the only profession that has significantly dropped in trust-worthiness in recent years is the clergy.”[2]
In the U.S., trust toward clergy is at an all time low.
Gallup and perceived honesty / ethical standards among clergy
Highlighted in a recent article titled Ethics Ratings of Nearly All Professions Down in U.S., a Gallup poll found that Americans rated the honesty / ethical standards of pastors very low. In 2019, only 40% of Americans rated the honesty / ethical standards of clergy as high or very high. In 2023 that percentage fell to 32%. In fact, many professions rated poorly. The only profession that actually saw an increase (though it’s still quite low) was labor union leaders. Nurses had the highest rating at 78%. The professions with the lowest trust levels for Americans were advertisers, car salespeople, senators, and…drumroll…members of Congress.[3]
One of the reasons that many people don’t seem to trust pastors these days – and this is certainly not the only reason, but it’s a big one – is because of what J.R. Woodward, author and national director of an organization called V3[4], writes about in The Scandal of Leadership: “domineering leadership.”[5] When this kind of leadership in the church is witnessed not only by congregants but also by a watching world outside of the church, it’s no wonder that there’s skepticism – among Christians AND non-Christians alike – in the air. Cynicism may be a better word. Woodward writes, “In significant portions of the church, a cynical spirit has surfaced within both leaders and members.”[6]
Polycentric leadership
While reading the book and also listening to an interview with Dr. Woodward on a podcast called Theology in the Raw[7] I wondered what the data might show today, in 2024, across North America. Is church leadership actually getting better (despite the all-time-low ratings and mistrust toward clergy), remaining the same, or is it getting worse? Is there an alternative paradigm to explore, outside of the common top-down, CEO style leadership still prevalent in many evangelical churches and in many denominations? An alternative to the solo CEO-pastor approach is a polycentric model. This is a model that Woodward references in the Theology in the Raw podcast episode.”[8] Woodward states:
One of the things that we really encourage at V3 is polycentric leadership as opposed to just hierarchical. So shared leadership…polycentric just means poly…many centers. So even V3…I didn’t want to do this by myself, so I invited Dan and now we have Jesse and the three of us kind of lead this together. And so sometimes I’m leading and sometimes I’m following. I think that’s important.[9]
I do wonder if changes or models like this might actually take place more frequently in churches in the West, in the future.
Imitation, Powers, Leadership
Woodward dissects imitation, Powers, and (church/missional) leadership. His thesis is “that the only way to overcome the Powers is through imitation of Christ, in particular his desires, which always leads to how we act.”[10] Basically, Woodward seeks “to link the fall of church leaders to patterns of domination, but (he) also hope(s) to demonstrate a link between imitation and the Powers. (He) want(s) to explain how leaders who uncritically imitate patterns of power seen in the fallen world are liable to fall into patterns of domination.”[11]
What are the Powers?
Woodward uses the term Powers with a capital “P” to refer to “Satan, the demonic, principalities, and powers.”[12] The Powers “manifest through social realities that actively warp God’s intentions for the world.”[13]
What leadership is he talking about?
He’s talking about church leadership and patterns of domineering leadership discussed, for example, in the popular podcast The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.[14] He talks about several names in the book, including Mark Driscoll, C.J. Mahaney, and Steve Timmis[15] – names connected to the young, restless, and reformed movement, a group also discussed in Dr. Anthony Bradley’s Substack article “The Gospel-Centered Movement, 2005-2023.”[16]
What does he mean by imitation?
Or perhaps a better question is this: What does he mean by “mimetic desire?” Woodward writes, “Mimetic desire suggests that humans are the most imitative creatures on earth and that we imitate the desires of our models.”[17]
Becoming what we love
I’m going to have to read James K.A. Smith’s Desiring the Kingdom. I’m almost embarrassed to say that I haven’t read that book yet, but it’s true. Woodward makes connections to Smith’s understanding that people are shaped by desire (“people-as-lovers”), not merely by information, belief, or ideas.[18] “We become what we love, and ultimately, what we love is what we worship. Whether or not we are aware of it, those desires also shape the desires of those who look to us as models. Likewise, whether consciously or not, we all have models who influence our desires…We imitate the desires of those we look up to, our models.”[19]
Yes, we need better leaders and better models, but we need to consider the desires of those we follow.
More research needed
If I had more time, I’d like to explore the groups and institutions that are re-thinking the formation of leaders in order to promote an alternative to the examples we’ve seen in recent decades. The imitation of Christ and how this imitation translates across cultures and across institutions (including the church) in 2024 and beyond would be a subject that needs more attention.
[1] Bobby Duffy, Why We’re Wrong About Nearly Everything: A Theory of Human Misunderstanding (New York: Basic Books, 2019), 222.
[2] Ibid., 222.
[3] See https://news.gallup.com/poll/608903/ethics-ratings-nearly-professions-down.aspx.
[4] See https://thev3movement.org/.
[5] J.R. Woodward, The Scandal of Leadership: Unmasking the Powers of Domination in the Church, 100 Movements Publishing, www.100Mpublishing.com, 2023, Kindle Version, 26 of 608.
[6] Ibid., 26 of 608.
[7] See the episode here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1hmNNUFtHI.
[8] See the “The Leadership Crisis in the Church: Dr. J.R. Woodward” episode here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1hmNNUFtHI.
[9] See 35:20 – 35:50 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1hmNNUFtHI.
[10] Woodward, 40 of 608.
[11] Ibid., 30 of 608.
[12] Ibid., 38 of 608.
[13] Ibid., 38 of 608.
[14] See https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/.
[15] Ibid., 29 of 608.
[16] See: https://anthonybbradley.substack.com/p/the-gospel-centered-movement-2005?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2
[17] Woodward, 43 of 608.
[18] Ibid., 119 of 608.
[19] Ibid., 206 of 608.
About the Author
Travis Vaughn
4 responses to “Duffy, Gallup, and Woodward on Church Leadership”
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Hi, Travis,
So many good points in your post! One of them was “Yes, we need better leaders and better models, but we need to consider the desires of those we follow.” I have been looking at the construct of “wisdom” in my research. One of the chief components is humility, yet that seems to be the one area that is lacking as we have created the pastoral role to be a superhuman “cool” idol of sorts. What questions would help get us to take a glimpse beneath the surface and detect wrong “desires?”
Hi Travis,
I enjoyed reading your post and have been slowly making my way through the “Theology in the Raw” podcast you suggested. I was impressed by this statement you quoted from JR Woodward, “…so sometimes I’m leading and sometimes I’m following.” I briefly touched on the leader/follower connection in my post as I am continually reminding myself that I am simultaneously both. You mentioned polycentric leadership vs. CEO-pastor model. Do you have any book recommendations on that model? I’d like to think that the CEO model is only a western thing but it is alive in Asia as well. I’m looking for resources for a missionary friend.
I remember reading that stat in Bobby Duffy’s “Why We’re Wrong About Nearly Everything,” and even blogged on it because it shook me.
I’ll tell you what Travis, you have stirred something in me that I pushed aside some time ago, and that is in regards to the plurality (or polycentric model) of leadership. I know that Tim Clark has been functioning that way for a couple years now, and more and more in our Foursquare tribe are moving that direction, and some of the primary drivers have to be the rash of public failures.
I’m gonna be musing on your post some more. Thank you Travis.
As others have said, already: Great Post! What sort of made my head explode was the idea that different cultures might imitate Christ differently. Of course, you are right, but I had never thought of that before. There is a lot to unpack there. For example, what if we layer that onto the ideas presented in Erin Meyer’s Culture Map and her “8 scales of culture”? It makes me wonder how communities with diverse sets of values may interpret Christ’s behaviors and how that may inform really different forms or mimicry. Very interesting!