Lunch with Dr Jordan Peterson, Maps, Heroes and the Bible.
I wish I had read this book before lunch with Dr Peterson last year. I was just as surprised as anyone else when I was invited to meet him in Sweden. The contact came through a friend. With 48 hours’ notice, I changed my plans and flew to Sweden to have lunch with Dr Peterson, His wife, two friends, two bodyguards (Peterson’s, not mine), and later with Douglas Murray. Reading Peterson’s testimony in His preface, ‘Decensus ad Inferos’[1] in Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief would have better prepared me for the more personal aspects of conversation with him. Needless to say, he was brilliant in thinking, speech and inquisitive. While we wanted to ask him questions, he was equally interested in asking us for our views on various subjects. Conversations about Jesus were a significant part of the conversation. He later invited us to his evening presentation in an arena with 10,000 others (mostly young men) and then gave us backstage passes so we could continue conversations on Isaiah as the most Christological book in the bible. It was fascinating.
Maps of Meaning explores how individuals create meaning by navigating the tension between order and chaos. He describes life as a hero’s journey, emphasising how meaning emerges when people confront uncertainty. This concept aligns with Joseph Campbell’s monomyth in The Hero with a Thousand Faces,[2] where a heroic protagonist faces trials, transforms, and returns home. Both works highlight the hero’s journey, mirroring the universal human struggle for significance and are well supported by the biblical narrative.
The Hero’s Departure
Peterson frames the departure as leaving comfort and safety to confront the unknown.[3] This stage resonates with Luke 4:18-21, where Jesus, returning to His hometown, proclaims His mission: “The Spirit of the Lord is on me… to proclaim freedom for the prisoners.” Jesus initiates His public ministry, stepping into uncertainty, a hallmark of the hero’s departure. Similarly, in Campbell’s narrative, the hero receives a call to adventure: In modern media, Frodo takes the ring, Neo chooses the red pill, and Katniss volunteers as a tribute in the Hunger Games.[4]
Peterson identifies this stage as a departure from idealism, where the hero acknowledges that meaning comes from embracing vocation over ease. This is similar to the Journeyman ideal, where one moves beyond mere survival to pursue purpose.[5]
The Ordeal: Confronting Fear and Chaos
In Peterson’s view, ordeals symbolise confrontations with internal and external chaos.[6] Campbell sees the ordeal as the hero’s pivotal test, a moment that demands courage and transformation.[7] Jesus’ journey to the cross (Matthew 16:24-25) reflects this stage: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.” Peterson emphasises that these moments shape character, requiring heroes to face their deepest fears.[8]
The inmost cave—whether it’s Frodo’s journey to Mordor or Neo’s battle with Agent Smith—represents the confrontation with one’s inner demons. For Jesus, Gethsemane is the inmost cave, where He confronts the challenge of making the ultimate sacrifice (Luke 22:39-46).
Initiation: Tests, Allies, and Transformation
Peterson repeatedly expands on Campbell’s initiation phase through his book, describing tests, allies, and enemies as essential for growth.[9] These challenges define the hero’s identity, testing integrity and character. In leadership, this stage demands vulnerability and resilience where allies may also serve as enemies (like Gollum, whose duality challenges Frodo or Judas, who betrayed Jesus (Matthew 26:47-50). According to 2 Peter 1:3-4, discipleship involves participating in God’s divine nature, requiring leaders to navigate these complexities with wisdom.
Reward and Return: Leadership and Legacy
After overcoming trials, the hero claims the reward. Campbell calls it the “Ultimate Boon,”[10] a moment that benefits both the individual and the community. Peterson identifies that meaningful leadership emerges when individuals return transformed and ready to serve.[11] Jesus’ resurrection represents the ultimate reward, offering salvation (1 Peter 1:18-19). The return signifies a renewed sense of purpose. Campbell illustrates this as the hero returning home.[12] Harry Potter to Hogwarts, Katniss rebuilding District 12, or Simba reclaiming Pride Rock.
Conclusion: Participating in the Divine Journey
Peterson and Campbell’s frameworks converge on the belief that the hero’s journey is not merely a narrative but a psychological and spiritual reality. A map, followed by most, if not all, ideologies, collectively emphasising responsibility, courage, and meaning that aligns with the hero’s quest as a transformative process. In leadership, discipleship and a bible focus, embracing the hero’s journey means:
Recognising that ordeals shape character,
James 1:2-4 “Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.”
Romans 5:3-5 “Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.”
Departures demand courage, and
Genesis 12:1 “The Lord had said to Abram, ‘Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.’”
Joshua 1:9: “Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.”
Returns inspire legacy.
2 Timothy 4:7-8 “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day.”
Hebrews 12:1: “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.”
Talking scripture with Dr. Peterson and connecting it with Campbell’s hero narrative would have added another dimension to our lunch. Reflecting on Maps of Meaning, I see how his framework aligns with the biblical story, Jesus as the ultimate hero, embracing the departure, ordeal, initiation, and triumphant return. Our conversation on Isaiah as the most Christological book already touched on this, but had I been more familiar with Peterson’s analysis of meaning emerging from chaos, I could have drawn even stronger connections between the biblical call to courageous faith and the hero’s transformative journey. That lunch was not just a meeting of minds but a reminder that the greatest stories, those that shape individuals and societies, point back to the eternal truths found in scripture.
[1] Peterson, Jordan. 1999. Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief. New York: Routledge. Xi.
[2] Campbell, Joseph. 2012. The Hero with A Thousand Faces. 3rd edition. Novato, Calif: New World Library.
[3] Peterson, 148.
[4] Campbell, 41.
[5] Peterson, 271.
[6] Ibid, 186.
[7] Campbell, 81.
[8] Peterson, 256-266.
[9] Peterson, 31, 91, 221, 222, 223, 225, 272, 273, 275, 277, 297, 396, 423, 426.
[10] Campbell, 148.
[11] Peterson, Ch5, 301.
[12] Campbell, 188-196.
About the Author
Glyn Barrett
I am the founding & lead Pastor of !Audacious Church in Manchester, England. I was born in Manchester, but moved to Australia at the age of two. My wife and I were married in Australia and began married and ministry life in England 29 years ago. After serving as youth pastors for 12 years, we moved to Manchester to pioneer !Audacious Church. As a church we now have 7 locations. 3 in Manchester, Chester, Cardiff (Wales), Sheffield, and Geneva (Switzerland). In 2019 I became the National Leader of Assemblies of God in Great Britain. We have over 650 churches in our movement and have planted 98 new churches since May 2022 with a goal of planting 400 new churches between May 2022 and May 2028. I am the Global Chair for Church planting for Assemblies of God which currently has 420,000 churches and also chair Empowered21 Europe. I'm happily married to Sophia, with two children, one dog and two motorbikes. I love Golf, coffee and spending time with friends. I love to laugh, make friends and create memories!14 responses to “Lunch with Dr Jordan Peterson, Maps, Heroes and the Bible.”
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Thanks Glynn for the way you wove Peterson and Campbell together with the truths of scripture. There is a lot of alignment there. Where, in your opinion, is there discord between Peterson’s view of story and the narrative of Scripture as the ultimate Story?
Thanks Ryan – While Peterson affirms the archetypal power of biblical stories, his framework often stops short of embracing the transcendent, personal God of Scripture. He tends to interpret biblical events symbolically, as psychological truths rather than historical or divine realities. This emphasis on myth over revelation creates tension. Scripture isn’t just a helpful map for meaning; it is God’s redemptive narrative. The discord lies in treating Scripture as human wisdom rather than divine intervention.
What a wonderful experience to have 1:1 time with Peterson. Perhaps the opportunity will come again. Given his understanding of scripture and, of course, psychology, what do you think keeps him from going all in to become a Christian, especially now that his wife has joined the church? Given his vast research and gift of vocabulary, I wondered if he had concerns about the interpretation of scripture by various pastors. I’m curious about your thoughts.
Thanks Jen. He seems genuinely drawn to Christ and scripture. Everything I am about to say is conjecture, it did not come up in our conversation, and if it did, I wouldn’t like to share his personal thoughts with him. His intellectual integrity may resist full commitment without reconciling denominational interpretations, theological inconsistencies, or emotional suffering. His analytical mind may be unsettled by the subjective nature of faith and the varied hermeneutics applied across churches. I wonder if the fear of losing philosophical neutrality or being seen as less objective may also play a role. Yet, his wife’s conversion may nudge him further toward a personal surrender.
Hi Glynn,
I enjoyed reading your post. What an experience to spend time with Dr. Peterson.
How does Peterson’s depiction of the tension between order and chaos shape the hero’s journey, and why is it crucial for creating meaning in life?
Thanks Shela. Dr Peterson frames the hero’s journey as a dynamic movement between order and chaos, where chaos is the unknown and order is stability. The hero steps into chaos to confront fear and bring back wisdom, restoring or reshaping the world. This is vital for meaning because it situates growth and purpose within adversity. Life’s significance doesn’t come from avoiding hardship but from transforming through it. The hero’s transformation becomes the source of truth, courage, and legacy.
Hi Glyn, After reading Maps of Meaning and remembering your previous time together, I see how you might have engaged differently with him on Isaiah. However, on reflection, was there anything you would have liked to have asked him but did not have the chance to do that in your previous visit?
Yes! Reflecting back, I wish I had asked how his understanding of suffering had evolved, especially in light of his own health battles and his wife’s faith journey. Given his insights into meaning emerging from chaos, I’m curious how he reconciles the philosophical with the personal. I would’ve loved to hear how Isaiah’s prophetic tension between judgment and hope resonates with him personally, beyond theory, particularly in light of his own public and private ordeals.
Hi Glyn, what a privilege! If you could meet him for a second time, what is one thing you would like to say to him? I’m intentionally not asking what you would ask him, but what would you like to share with him?
Ooooh good question. I would share how deeply his work has helped bridge conversations between psychology, faith, and leadership in my world. His articulation of meaning, responsibility, and courage has opened doors to exploring Scripture with people who might otherwise stay distant. I’d want him to know that, even unintentionally, he’s been a companion on the road for many wrestling with faith, not as a destination but as a fellow traveller, nudging hearts toward deeper truth. And I would ask him if we wanted to join a prayer whatsapp group.
Christy, this is a great question! Glyn, I love your answer. Should you cross paths with Dr. Peterson again (which wouldn’t be surprising!), is there something you’d like to explore further with him or gently challenge him to reconsider?
Thanks Kari. If we crossed paths again, I’d love to explore the distinction between symbolic truth and historical reality, especially concerning Jesus’ resurrection. I’d gently challenge him to consider whether reducing Scripture to archetypes might limit its transformative power. The resurrection isn’t just a meaningful myth, it’s the turning point of human history. I’d invite him to reflect not only on the psychological utility of Christ but also the personal, living reality of a risen Saviour.
Glyn,
It is amazing the ways in which we all cross different paths at different times in our lives. That is great that you were able to meet with Peterson. What was one thing that you remember learning from him in person that stuck with you?
Hi Mate. Impossible to list one. We spent 6 hours in total with him. But here is a thread he was speaking on on truth: “ Don’t let stuff bubble up with in you. Speak to someone. Tell the truth as much as you can. Don’t get caught in lies and half truths. You can’t be who are unless you tell the truth. When you tell a lie you are the tyrant. There is a cost to telling truth. Conflict deferred is conflict multiplied. Jonah is called on to tell the truth. He runs away. A fish gets him. A creature from the abyss swallows him whole. If you think telling the truth is the worst thing then you will be in the jaws of the creature from the abyss. Why are the tyrants ruling ? Because we are not telling the truth.” Mic Drop!